Growing things

[halojedha]

I want to grow things.

I've been feeling the urge for a while anyway. I didn't manage to plant anything last year, as I was busy getting ready to go on parental leave and I knew everything would die once E arrived in July and I had no time to do any watering.

I've had success with container gardens in the past. 2009 and 2010 were good years. I grew herbs and vegetables in pots in my tiny yard in Tottenham, and on a rooftop when I lived in Rye. Since moving to my current bit of North East London I've had less success with it. I've been busier with work, for one. In my last flat I had a lovely garden. It had a patio, a lawn, and two pear trees. I found that keeping the lawn mowed and the leaves swept and the bushes trimmed and the fruit gathered and turned into jam and chutney took up all my available gardening time and energy, leaving not much for growing food. I spent a lot of time weeding the flower bed - it had that blue flowered weed with the spiky leaves and the roots like tree roots, which came back every time I dug it up and destroyed the brickwork. I dug a lot of compost into that bed in hopes of making it more suitable for growing things. One year I got a load of seedlings started, but when I planted them out into the bed, they died. Some just perished, others were eaten by slugs and snails. Another year slugs and snails got everything in my pots. Another year the tent greenhouse I'd set up on the patio, with metal poles and a canvas cover and guy lines, got turned inside out in a March storm and I lost all my seedlings. Somehow since then I haven't quite reconnected with my gardening mojo.

I really like being around plants. I like getting soil under my fingernails. Seedlings bring me joy, and I like growing things I can eat. With supply chain shortages on the horizon, this year it's more important than ever. But I feel blocked.

At our current house we have a selection of dark leaved indoor plants and succulents that cope well in the shade. Out the back we have a yard which is entirely unbeautiful. I've got some perennials in pots out there. A bay tree, a camelia which is dying and I don't know why, some strawberry plants which produce tiny delicious fruits every summer, a small stunted rosemary bush, some thyme and lavender, some chives, a small rose bush. All need weeding and TLC at the moment.

Two years ago I spent ages weeding all the pots and planting a load of old seeds leftover from previous years, but many of them were expired and didn't sprout.

In the past I've had success growing basil, coriander, parsley, cut and come again lettuce and cabbage, rocket, chillies, potatoes and tomatoes. I've also grown courgette, beetroot, green beans and carrots, but found the yield very low.

Leo is allergic to nightshades, so non nightshade veg are probably best.

I don't really know anything about the chemistry of gardening - about soil types and nitrates and so on - and I'm a bit intimidated by it.

I have questions!
- What am I in time to plant this year?
- What will fare well in pots in the London climate (temperate, rainy, cool spring and warm summer)?
- How do I figure out how much sub each side of the yard gets and where to put which pots?
- should I start seeds in our lovely sheltered sunny conservatory, where we have about 1m square of surface free, or plant straight outside?
- if starting things indoors, how do I do the putting out process without killing them? You have to like condition them a bit at a time, right? I've never really had the attention to do that properly.
- Is any of this doable with a baby?

Comments

[kaberett]

camellia: if you do not know about soil chemistry THEN my #1 suggestion would be: it's not getting enough acid, *especially* if you're ever watering it with tap water. They like ericaceous soil; in theory w8rose garden is delivering me that + some appropriate fertiliser At Some Point, which we could drop off in your front garden (& wave through the window?) if you like, once we're out of Official Quarantine for this cough of mine.

There are lots of things that you're in time to plant: I've just got celeriac started (and might well have more plants than I have reasonable space for, so could donate you some); next on my list are courgettes and squash and cabbage various, along with beginning to think about root veg. There's even more stuff that doesn't want planting til late April/early May. At some point I'll get around to sunflowers and poppies. (I have two kinds of poppy, both designed to be grown for seed.)

It is not yet time for beans & peas, but those very well might also be very happy in pots (and again I have lots of seed I could decant for you/provide seedlings of).

My Big Discovery this year has been: it helps a lot if you start supplying seedlings with very dilute fertiliser or other plant food once they've developed their first true leaves. (I'm currently giving them a little bit of a feed once a week or thereabouts.)

In terms of the putting-plants-out process: I'm starting things out in the bathroom until they've germinated (that being the warmest room in the house), then moving them to the living room; as it warms up a bit more, I'll be starting to put them out in the mornings and bring them back inside in the evenings. This is relatively executive-functionally easy for me because they're right by the back door and I go past it multiple times a day, and I'm still not really managing to water the leeks I'm trying to germinate outside. >_<

I would be inclined to start seeds in your conservatory, not least because you then have get to give things the chance of getting up to a few inches high with severalfew Proper Leaves before sending them out to brave the slugs.

I am very happy to do mutual How Do I Not Kill The Plants nervous discussion with you.

[halojedha]

This is so helpful, thank you! YES please to seedlings you don't have space for. Also happy to return donate any excess I end up with!

I'm making a list of things I need. eBay seems a good place to buy compost. Not sure about getting seeds from there though.

Also making a list of what time to do things. How Not To Kill The Plants conversation will no doubt be welcome and necessary in due course 😬

[kaberett]

I get most of my seeds from realseeds.co.uk and secondarily from Chiltern Seeds, but the former are currently (/for some reason/) a bit slammed... I can send you a list of what I have, though, and see if there's anything you're enthusiastic about? :)

[halojedha]

I've just done a big order on VitalSeeds.co.uk, so we'll see how long they take to arrive! Meanwhile I intend to plant some coriander seeds and butternut squash seeds from the kitchen :)

I bought some ericaceous soil and camellia fertiliser on eBay, thanks for the suggestion!

Gardening advice

[ewt]

Gardening is essentially a war on slugs and snails in this part of the world. I've had some (but not total) success with copper mesh attached firmly to the entire rim of pots. Copper tape is good for slugs but snails basically don't care about it. Salt will eventually screw up your soil but isn't too harmful if your pot is on a patio and you put a ring of salt around it. Some people swear by eggshells but I've never found htem to make much difference. Poison is bad for hedgehogs etc (and their population doesn't recover as quickly as that of the slugs and snails!) but if you're going ot use it, I understand that ferric phosphate is a *lot* better than metaldehyde. The best defence is going out with a torch and gloves just after dusk when it's damp and exterminating them by hand (we drop ours in beer).

A small selection of non-nightshade things that do well in pots and you're not too late to sow:

- courgettes
- beans
- peas, though you need to start them pretty damn soon
- spinach
- chard
- lettuce
- nasturtiums
- various herbs
- probably some brassicas but I don't like them so I don't eat them much

In general, bigger pots are better. Big blue IKEA bags are great (but they are bigger than strictly necessary; half that size is generally okay.) Courgettes particularly will benefit from feeding. You can plant courgettes and beans in the same pot if it's big enough. Have a look at some seed websites for different varieties and their needs. Think about whether the plants need supports. I find it's worth my time to grow tall varieties of things, to maximise vertical space, but some people swear by dwarf varieties.

Carrots are a real pain and usually so cheap to buy that I don't bother; growing roots in pots is generally annoying.

Some of these things need starting indoors, some will be fine outdoors. You might consider growing some food indoors in that 1 meter square of conservatory, too.

To "harden off" plants you take them outside for an hour or two in the warmest part of the day to start with, then after a few days start putting them outside all day but bringing them in at night. After a week or so of this they should be good to go outside.

I have a little wooden thing for making paper seedling pots out of newspaper or scrap paper and I like it a lot. You can just pop the whole lot in the soil, no need to try to get the seedling out first.

Most things that we eat want a bunch of light so pick the sunniest spot in your garden. Observation at various times of day will help with this. So will a look at Google Maps on the satellite view, just for figuring out the directions (if you don't have a compass handy).

Your soil is almost certainly heavy London clay. If you mix in coco coir (available in expanding bricks online), that will give it some structure, though this is sortof a "quick and dirty" approach.

I tend not to sow all of my seed at once, so if I get really bad weather or something else goes wrong I can try again.

https://www.gardenfocused.co.uk has a lot of pretty good information, including on timing for sowing things. It can be a bit overwhelming, but if you pick two or three things you think you'd like to grow and focus on those, it will cover all the main pitfalls.

If you don't have a source of well-rotted compost you'll probably need some fertiliser. More isn't always better with this, too much can 'burn' plants. I think the ones that come in granules are easiest to use.

Whether any of it is do-able with a baby is... beyond my area of expertise. But if you can get things started well, and keep the slugs and snails off them somehow, once they get going they mostly just want water every day (especially in pots).

Re: Gardening advice

[halojedha]

Wow, this is incredibly helpful. I've tried the copper tape and the eggshells before, neither were decisive, and we don't eat eggs anyway. Your method sounds best. I'd hope to have fewer of the beasties in our concrete bound yard than I used to in my nice lush garden. Why beer, particularly? Would they drown in water, maybe with a bit of bleach added to make sure? Seems a waste of beer!

The rest of this is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Thanks so much for taking the time to share it. I'm making notes and trying to figure out where to obtain seeds in this time of scarcity. May have to start with coriander seeds from the cupboard...

Re: Gardening advice

[ewt]

There is a London seed swap community on DW, I think kab and I are both members, can't recall the name of it. I'm certainly happy to post you some of my spare seed if you let me know what you want (I have... many vegetable seeds, except not brassicas because I hate them).

Re: Gardening advice

[halojedha]

Thanks! I managed to get onto vitalseeds.co.uk this morning to put an order in, so now I'll wait and see how long that takes to arrive :)

[juliet]

- What am I in time to plant this year?

Nearly everything! The only things I've started so far are the overwintered things, potatoes, and a couple of things in the greenhouse that could just as well have waited a bit. The things you list as having grown before you're all in time for, if you can get seeds.

(For seeds try http://realseeds.co.uk -- also gives you the option to seed-save from anything that does well, because they're not F1 hybrid seeds.)

- What will fare well in pots in the London climate (temperate, rainy, cool spring and warm summer)?

In theory you can grow pretty much anything in a pot, if it's big enough. With medium-sized pots, leafy greens and herbs ought to do well; roots are a bit of PITA and I wouldn't bother myself. Courgettes can do OK but you do need a decent-sized pot, and courgettes prefer to have a couple of other courgettes around so the fruit gets fertilised (otherwise they don't grow properly). Alternatively you can do the fertilising yourself with a paintbrush. (Further info available on request :) )

Climate-wise, again leafy greens/lettuce-y things/herbs do well. Peppers and aubergines and so on struggle as we don't get quite enough of a hot season. (Potatoes, in a big sack, but they're nightshades.)

- How do I figure out how much sub each side of the yard gets and where to put which pots?

First step: which direction do you face? Use a compass, or Google Maps. North-facing is much harder than south-facing. Most food plants do better with more sun.

- should I start seeds in our lovely sheltered sunny conservatory, where we have about 1m square of surface free, or plant straight outside?

Depends on the seeds. Some things can't transplant (e.g. carrots, but don't bother with carrots anyway tbh). You can get things going earlier if you use the conservatory, which is handy for some plants. You might have more luck with basil if you start (and indeed continue) it indoors. Things like parsley & rocket (especially rocket! very robust!) do fine sown outside directly.

- if starting things indoors, how do I do the putting out process without killing them? You have to like condition them a bit at a time, right? I've never really had the attention to do that properly.

Yeah, you're supposed to put them out for an hour one day, then two hours a couple of days later, and so on. It's called "hardening off". I am fucking terrible at this too but it would definitely be better for my tomatoes so am going to try harder this year.

- Is any of this doable with a baby?

Yes, but I strongly recommend having low expectations; writing down in whatever to do list management system you have what you need to do when (e.g. this year I have an alarm set to remind me to close the greenhouse roof every evening -- it gets mega warm in the sunshine even this time of year but then the temp drops a lot overnight) rather than relying on memory; and focussing on stuff that fits in the intersection of "robust/easy", "I really like this", and "it is extra nice fresh". Herbs and green leaves are good value on that metric.

[juliet]

oh yeah, also, sodding slugs, I hate them. Copper tape can work. Nemotodes work if you don't mind killing the slugs off but they don't last.

[doop]

I feel I should point out that there is an excellent book on exactly this matter ;-)

[halojedha]

Thanks, this is ace. Yeah, I've done the paintbrush fertiliser thing before with tomatoes. Multiple plants is a good call!

RealSeeds is closed for reason of pandemic, so I need to figure out where to get seeds from! I wonder if it's worth the risk of an outing to the supermarket or B&Q? I wonder if B&Q are even open?

I think the way to fit this around E is to earmark a couple of work days to setup that'll involve lots of bending over and whatnot, and have a go at letting them play outside while I work (small window of opportunity at present while they are still only mobile over small distances) or popping them in the sling and seeing what I can get away with. I don't fancy my chances of doing the front loaded work all around E though, and I don't mind giving up a work day or two to make it happen.

[juliet]

Oh bah, sorry, they were open last I looked! (Oh having said that I see that they're open a couple of times a week & unpredictably so. But I could add to basket just now so maybe worth trying again if you know what you want?)

This lot are still open but warn that they're delivering slowly: https://www.organiccatalogue.com/frequently-asked-questions/

This lot are open from 9am daily but shut as soon as they've got a day's worth of packing: https://vitalseeds.co.uk/
(but that implies they're posting out quickly so might be worth getting on first thing with your list ready!)

Personally I would buy from one of the online people -- Suttons etc are still open too -- rather than trying B&Q. Especially if you can get non-F1 seeds (from Real Seeds or Vital Seeds, I'm not sure about the organic catalogue) as B&Q's seeds will certainly be F1 and you won't be able to seed save if that's a thing you'd like to be able to do. Also you'll have less variety choice.

Once you've done the initial shifting soil around setup, sowing and watering doesn't take much time & you should be able to fit daily maintenance in around E?

[halojedha]

I'm not clear what the difference between F1 and not is or why F1 is bad - F1 seeds are less likely to last from year to year, is that right? I managed to put an order in with vitalseeds.co.uk this morning, thank you for the recommendation! Going to hit up eBay for compost I think.

[juliet]

F1 hybrid seeds don’t breed true, basically - if you save the seed from an F1 hybrid plant and plant it then what you get (if it grows at all) will not be the same as the parent & may not be predictable at all. The seeds that Real Seeds & Vital Seeds sell will breed true - so if you save some tomato seeds this year you can have more tomatoes of the same sort next year without having to buy more seed. Over time (if you choose which seeds you save carefully) you’ll also potentially get plants better suited to your conditions.

There are some complications in this around how various plants are pollinated (eg with some wind pollinated plants you need to put a bag over the flower heads or similar otherwise they’ll cross with any similar plant in a half-mile radius!) but the option is there if you want which it isn’t with F1. Real Seeds have seed saving info on their site.

(I cannot remember why it doesn’t work with F1 - it’s to do with how they’re produced I think.)

[fluffymark]

If you're not already aware, right now lots of people are suddenly into gardening because of the lockdown. Also the garden centers are all closed for the same reason. The places doing delivery are therefore swamped with orders. It may take weeks for a delivery, so get your order as soon as you know what you want.

[halojedha]

Thanks, yeah, I figured as much! Going to use eBay for compost and any containers I need, and I managed to put in a seed order this morning so hopefully that'll be posted quickly.

[aiwendel]

On planting things out. Don't plant beans or courgettes out until all risk of frost is passed. May/ June.
Courgettes and beans get on and are satisfying to grow . Cut and come again salad is good too. And mangetout.
Peas and mangetout and salad can be planted out already.
Birds and frogs can help with slugs if they can reach them. You can also buy copper tape to stick on pots which is supposed to deter them but i can't confirm whether it works or not.
Maybe keep very small plants up on a table and grow lots of them. Good luck ans happy gardening xxx